Monday, November 05, 2007

The Prophet, The Children, and The Bears

I often tell folks that when you go to church, you never hear a sermon about the bad stuff in the bible. I was wrong.

Grace Baptist Church in Fremont California took on one of my favorite 'bad' stories in the bible. Not only did Pastor Michael Phillips take on this subject for his congregation, he tailored the subject to be presented directly to the children of his church. The link below provides a very short written version, which is fun, but the real gem is the full length 43 minute recording of his sermon “The Prophet, The Children, and The Bears”. Grab a cup of joe, snuggle up on the couch, gather ‘round the kids, and soak this in:

http://www.gracebaptist.ws/sermons/notes/ChildrensSermons/TheProphet_TheChildren_TheBears.html.

Now, if you are a Christian, I would love to hear your viewpoint of this sermon. Did you enjoy it? Do you think it is appropriate for children of all ages? Do you think it was God inspired? Is this what you are teaching your child?

Since I don't expect any responses to this, I will go ahead and give you my opinion:

This sermon is blatant child abuse. It is a perfect example of everything I detest about conservative christianity.

25 comments:

Rowan said...

This is so absurd...both the story & the cruel use of it by Phillips. It's unbelievable the things that people think are appropriate. Especially so when done for the sole use of manipulation of children. I read the transcript, but had to turn off the audio version. It was making me nauseous.

Wherever did you find this?

Dave said...

Hi Rowan! So good to see you back!

I found the sermon from a Google search for 2 Kings 2:23 and sermonaudio.com showed up. Here’s a link: http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=11260302648. The page has a link to the text version, which redirects to the church site. I noticed Sermonaudio allows comments, so I left one. Funny, it never showed up. There was one that did show up though. Here it is:

A few weeks after I listened to the message on “The Prophet, the Bears and the Children”, I was listening to a lady at my church complain about some children she knew who mocked the things of God. I told her about this message, and ended up making a copy of it so she could listen to it at home. They sat down on their bed and put the message in to listen to it, when, after about 10 minutes, their youngest son (3rd grade) came in and sat down with them. He said, "I like this, momma" and continued to listen. After a few more minutes their oldest son (11th grade) came in and started listening as well. The parents looked at each other and said, "we need to get Brittany in here too." So they brought their daughter (6th grade) in and started from the beginning. After the message was over, they sat in their bedroom with their children, all discussing the message for 2 hours! My friend told me that they were talking to their children about the danger of mocking the things of God just a couple weeks before that, and now their children were hearing the message very bluntly and poignantly from the lips of a preacher in California. Let me tell you, it made a totally different and more powerful impact on the children as they recognized the seriousness of it like they hadn't before

The original sermon was made in 1985. That means those poor children would be adults now. I would love to know how they all turned out. No doubt most are subjecting their own kids to the same crap. And the cycle of abuse continues.

TheAmazingChristian said...

There are a few key issues we must understand in regards to this account of the youths cursing Elisha. The text reads, “From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. ‘Go on up, you baldhead!’ they said. ‘Go on up, you baldhead!’ He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.” It seems unbelievable that God would cause two bears to maul a group of children for making fun of a man for being bald.

First, the King James Version has done us a disservice by translated the term as “children.” The Hebrew word can refer to “children,” but rather more specifically means "young men." The NIV, quoted here, uses the word “youths.” Second, the fact that the bears mauled 42 of the youths indicates that there were more than 42 youths involved. This was not a small group of children making fun of a bald man. Rather, it was a large demonstration of young men who assembled for the purpose of mocking a prophet of God. Third, the mocking of “go on up you baldhead,” is more than making fun of baldness. The baldness of Elisha referred to here may be: 1) natural loss of hair; 2) a shaved head denoting his separation to the prophetic office; or more likely, 3) an epithet of scorn and contempt, Elijah not being literally bald. The phrase “go up” likely was a reference to Elijah, Elisha’s mentor, being taken up to Heaven earlier in 2 Kings chapter 2:11-12. These youths were sarcastically taunting and insulting the Lord’s prophet by telling him to repeat Elijah’s translation.

In summary, 2 Kings 2:23-24 is not an account of God mauling young children for making fun of a bald man. Rather, it is a record of an insulting demonstration against God’s prophet by a large group of young men. Because these young people of about 20 years of age or older (the same term is used of Solomon in 1 Kings 3:7) so despised the prophet of the Lord, Elisha called upon the Lord to deal with the rebels as He saw fit. The Lord’s punishment was the mauling of 42 of them by two female bears. The penalty was clearly justified, for to ridicule Elisha was to ridicule the Lord Himself. The seriousness of the crime was indicated by the seriousness of the punishment. The appalling judgment was God’s warning to all who would scorn the prophets of the Lord.

Dave said...

Thanks for stopping by Amazing Christian!

I checked your profile and see that you claim to be 14 years old. Your words do not sound like those from such a young Christian, and alas, they are not. I see you have been to www.gotquestions.org.

I am willing to engage in a conversation with you if you are willing to be forthright and honest. To cut and paste verbatim the words from a Christian website without giving credit is neither. What it does, especially to an ex-Christian such as myself, is provide evidence that you have been brainwashed with Christianity to the point that you are unwilling to think for yourself. To parrot other's words is typical Christian, not, my young friend, "amazing". Not only that, you have violated the copyright policy of Got Questions Ministry.

dannydamagichobo said...

Hi, Dave

In regards to what you said to Amazing Christian, you still haven't given a case against what he had brought up (although you didn't seem to think you needed to, all you haad to do was attack his credibility)

I understand how you would see this to be morally repugnant to you, especially since you do not know god for yourself, and until you do, I'm not sure if your opinions will ever change, but the understanding of these kinds of things are these:

If god is not given what he deserves, there will be hell to pay. Yes, the story phillips used was ,manipulating and probably wserve as a source of outrage for future generations of ex-christians, but it does not change what the Jews believed. This god, who is all powerful and created everything, is being gracious to man by letting him live, albeit he obeys the right commandments. Not only that, but mankind was not able to obey his commandments, so god gave his unique Son do die for man's transgressions. Of course there are other things to be told of, but I'm righting this right now at 4:45 A.M. so I'll save it for another post. Ultimately, mankind does not deserve to even live, therefor to argue that god unjustly kills (a.k.a. murders) does not even apply to him. I'm simply re-stating what is stated in the Bible.

Dave said...

You are exactly right about me attacking AC’s credibility. I apologize for that. As you can probably tell, I find it really annoying when Christians resort to being mere parrots. As far as giving a case for what he plagiarized, I have done so many times, and to be honest, don’t particularly feel up to it again. Instead, here’s a link to Steve Well’s blog where others and myself discussed this subject at some length: http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2007/10/go-up-thou-bald-head.html

As far as what you have said, well, you’ve summarized pretty well why I have come to dislike Christianity so much. First, you claim I cannot understand because I do not know god as you do. That’s pretty arrogant, my friend. I “knew” god for 45 years as a Christian, and it was only when I actually used the morality and intelligence that God gave me did I determine that God is not to be found in the Bible. I no longer claim to understand God, but I do know now that He would never murder his own creation, nor would He think we are unworthy of the life He gave us.

In any case, I do appreciate you stopping by (and using your own words!).

dannydamagichobo said...

Dave, thank you for responding

As for you not knowing god, I did not mean to make it sound as if I knew him. I too am an ex-Christian (at 17 years old). I only started becoming more honest with myself for the past 6 months or so.

What I meant was that these people who claimed to know God (in the NT, and even some in the OT) claimed that this God completed them, that they were not in need of anything else. These people, whether or not they were appostles or simply desciples, apparently having their lives changed, were more than willing to die for this "Good News", and were filled with love, faith,and hope. These people claimed to worship the one whom you call a murderer, a baby killer, a fraud, and are willing to help the sick, the starving, and the lonely.

Now, I haven't seen many of thesse people in my lifetime. Indeed, sometimes I wonder how much some of these "Christians" are faking their "loving" personalities. I will by no mens deny that they exist, and are everywhere (I myself was one of them). However, please do not assume then that they are all fakes or simply follow doctrine. In my mind, even if they are the fewest in number, some of them must have experienced God to the point where they are willing not to kill, but to be killed, so that others may know this God as well.

dannydamagichobo said...

and as for you not understanding god, you are actually claiming you understand some things about him, i.e. you now know he word never murder his own creation, and would never consider us to be unworthy of life.

Forgive me for sounding arrogant as I post this, but to claim that we are worthy of him, and that we deserve his gifts and everything that is good, is kind of a stretch. The main message that was given was that since man cannot obey God's commandments (due to his corrupt nature) he then is not worthy of anything. Apparently the greatest sin was said to be this: To NOT love the lord your god with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. Although many would disagree with me, I believe that at least some people in this world are able to do this.

p.s. I can understand your frustration at people using other's words.

dannydamagichobo said...

Well, I looked up the address you gave me, and I think there are several points to consider, as you might already know very well yourself:

1) Much of the debate was based on what translation was used. I think this only displays one's need to go and learn the language himself, and then reading the oldest copy of the manuscript that they have, as wellas learning the context of the culture and behavior of the people of the OTand NT. Otherwise, we will continue to have arguments over translation to the point of insanity. (However, this may still not stop differences in opinion of what the words mean, but it's better than having to look up ceaseless amounts of translations in order to make one's point across).

2) In terms of one's sources, I have heard many differing things. This was the first time I have heard that the age of accountability was 19, I had heard from a previous source that the age of accountability was 13, but either way, this is not the main problem here. The main problem is the youths/child's/young men's innocence. And here it all depends on whether or not one's justice and understanding of morality matches the one who wrote this story (and the Hebrew God himself). This was all based on personal opinion (not saying that personal opinion has no truth). And seeing as this was based on personal opinion, this argumet could go on till the ends of time. You and the rest of the people who see the Christian God to be evil and immoral go on about, "how can a loving god do this to his creation?" and only (willfully) display your lack of understanding on this matter. However, you do not ask this question in order to find the truth, you say this to try and convince others that this god is not who many say he is. So basically, you don't want to understand. Obviously I'm not saying anything new here, I'm simply giving an asessment of what I read.

3) In all honesty, what does it matter if the child was 13 or 30? Hell, there are 40-year-olds who have the mental maturity of a 10-year-old, and 13-year-olds with a maturity exceeding some of the people who wrote on that blog. Even if the child was 13, he still has some understanding of what is good and what is bad. But the crux of this problem goes much deeper than this verse, further than the problems you have with what the Bible says, but what you see in modern days, with rape, murder, and starvation all over the world. So even if one gave a logical explaination to justify what god did (although I highly doubt you would see it as such) you would still have a problem with this god. In all honesty, what were you trying to do in that blog? Were you trying to convince others of your argument to that you don't have to be alone in what you believe? Or was it to simply vent out your anger against those who try to defend the Christian God, like Sconner? Or was it both? Either way, I don't think you were able to complete your objective in case you were trying to convert Jason.

My point is that this was a little more than a waste of time (unless this was simply for the sake of venting your frustration). I hardly believe logic siding with Christianity will change your mind (I'm not ruling it out, however). Things like this take more than doctrine, it takes personal experience, and that is, (please excuse me if I'm wrong) what you want.In essence, you want love, you want relationship, just not the one whom people caim to fulfill you in all aspects of need, namely the Christian god, whether it be Yahweh or Jesus.

Dave said...

You said ”Forgive me for sounding arrogant as I post this, but to claim that we are worthy of him, and that we deserve his gifts and everything that is good, is kind of a stretch.”

I don't think assuming that a perfect loving creator would feel his creations are worthy of his gifts and goodness is a stretch at all.

You said: ”However, you do not ask this question in order to find the truth, you say this to try and convince others that this god is not who many say he is. So basically, you don't want to understand.”,

Again with the arrogance. Not only do you understand the biblical god, you understand what motivates me. I am not an atheist with an ax to grind. I am an EX-Christian. Perhaps if you want to continue this dialog, go back into my older posts to see where I am coming from. I know I will never convince you or any other Christian of anything. I do this blogging because, well, it's fun, and it keeps me educated on biblical issues and is a reminder of what I used to believe.


You said: ”I don't think you were able to complete your objective in case you were trying to convert Jason.”.

I will never convince Jason of anything.

You said ”Things like this take more than doctrine, it takes personal experience, and that is, (please excuse me if I'm wrong) what you want. In essence, you want love, you want relationship, just not the one whom people caim to fulfill you in all aspects of need, namely the Christian god, whether it be Yahweh or Jesus.”.

You're excused. Danny, I am a 53 year old father and husband that has gone through many trials and tribulations in life. I do not seek experience, I have it. It wasn't until I was 45 years old that I determined that a “relationship” with an invisible friend in the sky just didn't cut it. And once I started digging in to it, not only did it not cut it, it didn't make any sense either. Not at a moral, physical, or intellectual level.

You are right in that I certainly do want love and relationships. That is why I surround myself with real people... my wife, children, friends, and family. I talk to them and they respond with actual vibrations in the air. I hug them and they hug me back, with actual physical contact. As children grow and give up believing in invisible friends, monsters under their bed, unicorns, and Santa Claus, I have just taken the next step and no longer believe in some magical bearded man in the sky.

dannydamagichobo said...

Hey Dave

You: I don't think assuming that a perfect loving creator would feel his creations are worthy of his gifts and goodness is a stretch at all.

Me: On the contrary, the difference here is a loving God in the way he was described in he bible and the creation that is described to be unworthy of anything good. Of course, much of this argument stems from what God thinks like, and many assume that they understand what it meansto love in the sense that it is described in certain parts of the Bible.

You are right in saying that I was (and still am in many cases) arrogant and ignorant of your experiences. However, as I have mentioned before, I too am an ex-Christian, however, my unbelief is not basedon such questions.

As for suggesting that I knew what you believed when you considered yourself to be a Christian, I was referring to the fact that there are many people who claim to have faith in Christ yet do not know what faith is. Many suppose itto be simply belief, or recitation of theLord's prayer, or showing up to church, etc. What I'm saying is that I believe faith to be complete trust, regardless of the object of where that trust is. It is the difference in belief and faith, that compelled me to say this. That is why I stated that you were not truly a christian, however, this does not seem to matter anymore. What matters, now, is simply our lives. I am sorry to have offended you in any way, I simply seek survival, love, andmeaning in my life. And I do not have it, nor did I ever obtain by trying to abide by what my church had told me. I came to understand that I was not a Christian because I did not truly believe what they were telling me from the start, and that I did not love God with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength. It also came from a full acceptance of my true selfishness: I could no longer give to a person in needand say I wasdoing it for God, becauseI wasn't. I was doing it for myself.

Anyway, I hope that true satisfaction in life can be found, even if it is simply a fantasy (as some people tell me). Or perhaps I will find it by having children.
I don't know.

Anyway, getting back on topic, it just goes back to whether or not one can understand what it is God deserves, and if he is recieveing it. According to the book (or rather, collection of books) you're criticizing,he is not getting good things he deserves, and as a consequence, is pounishing the beings that are taking from him what is his. The beings? Humans. The good things? Love/Worship. If you still don't think God is worthy of doing what he wasnt with creation, then fine. I would just like to make a distinction by what it means to love in His standards and what it means to love in ours. that's all.

dannydamagichobo said...

in the last bit,I misspelled "wants" with "wasnt"

sorry

Dave said...

Thanks Danny. I have more to say, but I wanted to ask you a quick question. You say you are an ex-Christian. What are you now?

dannydamagichobo said...

In all honesty, I'm not even sure. i understand the logic of the existence of a God, and even admist the Bible's discrepancies, that God seems to be the most logical. However, I still don't believe in him (or rather, I never did, but I kept tryingto force myself to think I did, which resulted in a huge psycological illness from it)

If I were to speak intelligently, I would say that I believe that there is a God, I just have never known him. But if I were to speak honestly, it would be that I really don't care, I just want some security and love in my life. And if there is a god out there willing to give me that, then hallelujah.

Dave said...

Thanks Danny. I appreciate your honesty.

You’ve touched on one of my beefs with Christianity, or any religion for that matter. It offers peace, love, and security, but it’s all smoke and mirrors. Christians will tell you their best friend is Jesus, but when pressed as to what that relationship is in reality, it’s all in their mind. No different than a child’s imaginary friend. As you have learned, trying to maintain this imaginary friend is mentally unhealthy. At least one of my previous blog entries touches on this subject.

As far as real security and love, that’s where friends and family come in. There’s a lot of people, especially at 17, that are in your boat and searching for such things. I don’t know what your situation is, but those without the love and security that family and friends provide are especially susceptible to the influences of religion, with all its social benefits. That’s why underprivileged and children are targeted.

I have twin daughters, very different personality wise, and you remind me of one of them. She is a smart skeptic, and as a result does not make friends nearly as easily as her sister. But the friends she makes are REAL. No fake niceties in Jesus’ name or the fake Christian smiles and outward friendliness.

Speaking of children, mine have certainly been the ticket to love and security. They have been the greatest experience in my life. I would not recommend you go off and have children for that reason however!

dannydamagichobo said...

Hahaha thanks Dave

Actually, I was one of the biggest fakes I have ever known. Everything that I did until this year was a lie, and as a result, I was lonelier than ever. So I was able to make friends quite easily (and still am, making me think I'm not alwayshonest with myself) however you are absolutely right in making true friends with honesty.

I also agree with what you say, but only to a certain extent: I see many people who profess faith, but that is only because they have been raised into it, their friends are into it, etc. As a result, I can quite easily see through their deceptions (since I've been doing it for so long) and In all honesty, I have yet to meet one Christian who meets the standards of the first two (and greatest) commandments. So for me I hesitate to say that their cannot be Christians who are real and honest, as well as being free from this illusion that all you have to do is read the Bible, go to church, etc, andboom, you have a relationship through God. I do not know all the people on this Earth, so that is why I hesistate to say that the God described by these Christians, and these Christians themselves who have been changed, to not exist.

As for it all being in one's mind, I can see your reasoning, but in all honesty, all of our perspectives differ. If one has an inherent belief that their is a god, yes that personcan be described as delusional, or that person can be described as one who can actually see, whereas his critics are blind. In the end, however, no matter our perspective, everyone believes in an aboslute truth, even if that person is unable to define what it is. It is for this reason that I believe there logically has to be a god, because if an omnipotent, omniscient god created everything, His perspective would outrule everyone else's. Otherwise, for me, absolute truth cannot exist.

I also agre with you in the caseof indoctrinating children, however, I cannot say that no good cancome out of it. Yet at the same time I see these children in my church "worshipping," but rather they are simply doing hand motions because they have been trained to. That is what sickens me, the fact that these kids think they are something they're not.

As for having children, I apologize, but what you said only increased my desire of having one! But don't worry, I don't plan on having one yet :D

However, one of my problems is that I always told myself that I loved people, whereasI look at myself and realize this is not the case. I love myself,and everyone else is here for my benefit (this, of course, logically cannot be true yet this is how I live). I would like to be in closer relationships with people, and even have a wife, but realize that I cannot honestly give to people what they need, only a shadow. There are seevral girls I am interested in, but I have done nothing to get involved with them romantically speaking because I know that I do not have what they need: the love that is described in the Bible (although, there are many lovesdescribed in theBible, I meanto say the new Teastament understanding, this impossible love). That is another reason why I was (and still am, in a sense) interested in Christianity. It offers fullfillment (although, I myslef have not been fullfilled, nor have met anyone whom I can safetly say has), although this does not mean to me that it is all false. Those are some of my thought when it comes to "real" Christianity.

Dave said...

Thanks Danny! I appreciate your thoughts, and here’s a few more of mine:

1. You do realize, don’t you, that this blog is being read by 2 people and 2 people only, you and me, right? (I guess if God is omniscient, He reads it too.) A lot of effort on your behalf that may be better spent in a more public forum. That was a compliment by the way.

2. I cannot come to terms with a god that is both omniscient and omnipotent. Logically, the two abilities cannot coexist (How can the future be changed during its time by God if God knows now what is going to happen in the future?). Outside the scope of this subject, for sure, but it’s a basic flaw in the God concept.

3. Your final paragraph describes another beef I have with Christianity: It makes you feel inferior. You are holding back having relationships with women because you feel you cannot provide that Biblical love. That’s sad to me. This reminds me of perhaps the opposite effect, of making Christians feel superior in some way that limits relationships. For example, I have a niece who is beautiful in every sense of the word. She is also a devout Christian. She is 26 years old and cannot maintain a relationship because every man she meets does not meet her Christian standards. Her mother (my sister) has publically stated that her greatest wish for her children is to marry a Christian. She said that knowing that several members of her own family (including me) are not Christians. Nice, eh? So, if there’s a guy out there, perhaps like you, that is the nicest guy in the world, but has done his homework and rejected Christianity on moral grounds, he is not good enough for her. But some guy that declares himself a Christian, even though he may be a liar, cheater, and thief (but forgiven of course!) is on the short list.

dannydamagichobo said...

Hey Dave!

Thanks for the compliment, I do see your point about it may be better for me to bring my own thoughts to a more read forum, however, I have seen those forums, and all I see are people getting ripped apart right and left (and not through rational arguments, but through personal attacks, rarely do I see a rational argument actually being in place in those forums).

As for the logical fallacy of God's omnipotence and omniscience together (even separately, I have been under fire over some arguments against the idea of omnipotence) I have come to realize that it is not something I can understand fully. For example, I cannot understand how something can be eternal, with no beginning or end, because everything that I've experienced has an end, and has had a beginning. For me, I have no problem in believing that God would be both omnipotent and omniscient even though he does things (in the Bible) that make our eyes pop out. I still do not know why God wanted to randomly kill Moses, but that's not something I expect to understand. Perhaps it's the way I was brought up, but I have come to realize this: that I don't need to understand something in order for it to exist. Yes, I realize that this argument is far from satisfying, but this time I'm relaying my own experiences, not just logic. Who knows, perhaps my perspective will change again as I experience new things, but regardless, that is how I see it now.

As for your last point, the reason why I feel like I cannot hold a relationship is because I see this love presented in the Bible, and I feel like it is the real defition of love with a capital L. I also realize, as with my experiences with people, especially in the church, that they need something greater than I can provide for them, so in forsight, I can already see my future relationships failing. Again, this also goes to prior experience I've had wih dating girls. They want something that I cannot give them.

Yes, I agree with you totally that it's a sad sight to see when these people are willing to take a "Christian" spouse who is a complete fiend over a non-Christian who is way more decent. It goes back to this wierd way of thinking these people have: that all you have to do is go to church and read the Bible, and repeat a prayer that someone gives you, and BOOM, your a Christian.

One of my Church's pastor's offered to pray for me a couple of weeks ago, and his voice went from really soft and serious to this BOOMING, SHOUTING voice, as if the more he yells, the more God will consider his prayer. My Tai Kwon Do teacher was at my other side, making these wierd sounds, kind of like those noises people make to meditate. Toward the end of it my my pastor asked me in this loud voice, "DANIEL! DO YOU FEEL THE HOLY SPIRIT COMPELLING YOU? DO YOU HEAR GOD CALLING YOU?" As he was saying this his voice started breaking, and my teacher was crying. I simply said no, and then they asked me to pray to God. I very relunctantly prayed, telling him that all my life I never knew him, and that if he was there, that he would let me know him.
It is so sad, seeing these people having to make themselves get into this mode, like revving yourself up for a concert, and make yourself think that it's God. That whole time, I was thinking to myself of how phony this was, of how phony my pastor was being.

This is why I believe that "true" Christians, people who don't have to get themselves into the mood to pray, to worship, have what I'm seeking. Because I see these people, and how fake their being, hoping that them kissing God's ass will give them rewards, and how empty that is. Even my youth group pastor (this is a different one)admitted to me that he fakes it when he goes up to the pulpit, because he is not what he sees a true Christian would be like. But somehow he calls himself a Christian nonetheless. That is NOT where I want to be. I've been there before. And my God, it sucks.

On my last note, I've realized that I have a huge potential in many things that I would've thought otherwise, but there is this huge barrier keeping me from reaching it. You know that saying, If you put your mind to it, you can do it (or something like that). It's perfectly true for me, but I am constantly distracted by this fear of death. I am constantly worried that I am going to die, and then I cannot put my full concentration on anything that I'm doing. My talk with my psycologist didn't help. He essentially said, "what you're looking for, security, love, and purpose, does not exist." What he really said was that no one has it all together, but for me, that's what it means to have it all together. It's like, if my only purpose is survival for the sake of survival, then it is meaningless. Life itself is illogical and futile. I cannot help but see it that way if I cannot ever find those three things in my life. Yes, I understand that I'm seventeen, but that doesn't mean anything. People die everyday, many of them being younger than me.

Anyway, sorry for getting off topic, but going back to the original topic, I feel that there is something out there that is offering me these things. I'm still looking, hoping, for something to give me strength to face reality. Because for me, the reality that I see now sucks, and if I'm going to die, then there's really nothing I can do int he long run that's going to be meaningful to me. What's keeping me from despairing is the hope that there is something more beyond what I can see, and detaching myself from my emotions to a certain extent. Numbing myself.

Anyway, I apologize for my rant, I hope your doing well, now I'm going to respond to Jason regarding whether or not the Bible teaches the immortality of the soul, and whether or not the devil (and demons in general) exist. Wish me luck :D

Dave said...

Good luck!

Where is your conversation with Jason taking place?

dannydamagichobo said...

abunchofbiblediscussions.blogspot.com

he has alot of posts, right now it's whether or not the traditional view of Satan is real, and whether or not hell is taught in the Bible as a place of suffering or if people who die just die. He actually has made many good points for his case, however, many of them are based on how the words are translated, and the "context" of which they were placed. It just doesn't make sense to me, however, of how by doing exorcisms, Jesus and his disciples were proving that demons were not real. To me, he was only encouraging those beliefs. Anyway, the two links are: http://abunchofbiblediscussions.blogspot.com/2008/10/satan-current-beliefs.html

and:
http://abunchofbiblediscussions.blogspot.com/2007/04/what-bible-says-about-being-tormented.html

Anonymous said...

TheAmazingChristian here, you may have forgotten about me, but I am finally commenting to apologize for copying off GotQuestions.org and not giving them credit.

dannydamagichobo said...

Oh, my, God. I see my older posts and want to gag. I apologise for giving you such bullshit in regards to the "logic of God's existence." Pathetic, really pathetic. T.T

dannydamagichobo said...

and no, Amazing Christian, no one has forgotten about you ;D

Dave B said...

TheAmazingChristian,

I am just now seeing your latest post, and I wanted to thank you for stopping by and posting!

How goes your religious persuits?

Dave B said...

Danny, I was looking for an old post I made and ran across this great conversation we had over 8 years ago. I've you see this, please respond. I'd love to know how you are doing these days. Hugs from Texas!